Open forum for concerns of voters. We want a lively discussion of topics.
COFFEE PARTY PITTSBURGH COFFEE SUMMIT
Join us this weekend for the Coffee Summit focused on discussing how we can improve the legislative process. We already have over 300 Coffee Summit events organized across the country. The Coffee Summit is designed to help us prepare for Coffee with Congress which will take place in the first week of April in district offices during April Congressional Recess.
Sunday, March 28, 2010
Time:
4:00pm - 5:30pm
Location:
Panera at the Galleria, Mt Lebanon
Health Care is done go to work on the other stuff
I would like Conngress to go to work on the other problems: Ending the war in Aphganistan, regulating Finance institutions, Jobs creation, green technology, reducing the reliance on foreign oil ,equal rights for everyone including the LGBT community.
I am interested in organizing a group in SE PA, Shippensburg, Chambersburg area.
We live in the country. There are some coffee houses but not like in a city. Might I suggest coffee hours being held at churches, fire halls, and other gathering places that us country people congregate in if you don't have a coffee shop per say.
Mission Statement
MISSION STATEMENT:
The Coffee Party Movement gives voice to Americans who want to see cooperation in government. We recognize that the federal government is not the enemy of the people, but the expression of our collective will, and that we must participate in the democratic process in order to address the challenges that we face as Americans. As voters and grassroots volunteers, we will support leaders who work toward positive solutions, and hold accountable those who obstruct them.
Starting more groups, editing current groups, etc...
In two weeks time, Coffee Party USA will be releasing an internal Facebook type application specifically for members of the Coffee Party website. Until then, we are asking that everyone make due with the tools they have currently. This new platform will knock your socks off.
Please bear with us. We built it, you came, we have to remodel. 
What happened in the Pittsburgh area ?
We went to attend the meeting at the Galleria Mall in Mt. Lebanon and didn't find anyone there. We walked all over looking for others or the organizer and found no one. It didn't mention a specific location in the mall. Did we miss it or was it just a big flop in this area ? Any info would be greatly appreciated. We're finding it very hard to be politically active in the Pittsburgh area.
Who hijacked the front page mission statement and why?????
The Coffee Party Movement gives voice to Americans who want to see cooperation in government. We recognize that the federal government is not the enemy of the people, but the expression of our collective will, and that we must participate in the democratic process in order to address the challenges that we face as Americans. As voters and grassroots volunteers, we will support leaders who work toward positive solutions, and hold accountable those who obstruct them.
YORK AREA
Looking for anyone else in the York area. Supposedly, someone who attended the Harrisburg meeting on Saturday was planning to start a group here in York, though I don't know anything more about that (I was busy on Sat. and unable to attend).
Comments
Contact with Local Coffee Party Members
I'm a new member. I live in Drexel Hill, PA, and I've noticed different options to find events, which the closest seems to be a couple months away. However, looking over the site, I can't seem to find a way to communicate with local members directly in anyway. Maybe I'll find out how by the time anyone responds, but if not, could someone direct me. I'd like to make connections to understand my next steps. Thanks.
Pennsylvania
In order to find a list of nearby Coffee Party events (or to start one), go to the Home page and click where it says "Find a local gathering near you, or create your own", then put in your zip code to find a local group, or to start one.
It's also helpful if you click the button to Register for the event, so that people can see the number of people who have said they're coming (usually more people come than those who Register).
Some of the events are also listed on this page for cities in Pennsylvania.
Mike
COFFEE PARTY PITTSBURGH COFFEE SUMMIT
Join us this weekend for the Coffee Summit focused on discussing how we can improve the legislative process. We already have over 300 Coffee Summit events organized across the country. The Coffee Summit is designed to help us prepare for Coffee with Congress which will take place in the first week of April in district offices during April Congressional Recess.
Sunday, March 28, 2010
Time:
4:00pm - 5:30pm
Location:
Panera at the Galleria, Mt Lebanon
True reform
All ya'll need to understand that true reform would not only include the free market but solely be a free market solution. The free market is the ONLY solution to our problems, needs and desires. What we are getting from the Ds & the Rs is not a free market solution, it is a CONTROLLED solution.
George Washington – “Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
The only thing a government can do well is kill people & break things. You can put your life in their hands but you would be a fool to do so.
If you have a problem with what I have stated here, I’m OK with that. What I would like to see from you in your remarks is the inclusion of the name of any country that has not become despotic when the government had control over its people.
If you are to stand on the side of Freedom (liberty), personal ownership and the right to own property you must agree with me or you are as schizophrenic as the two party system we have in this country.
Another one ah them right to
Another one ah them
nitwits, eh? I don't have a whole lot of respect for that message, it seems like so much - sacrilege - to me. While the pursuit of property may indeed represent your happiness, I doubt that true happiness is ever found among those who, with single minded purpose, craft for themselves a life-style and patterns of habit toward that end to the exclusion of all else.
There are other considerations.
call me schizophrenic - I don't give a fuck.
nitwit
but thanks for coupling that message with the ideology of free markets - they do go hand in hand don't they -
and fly in the face of the fact that no market - no market is free.
RE: Another one ah them right to
Dog, that is very Zen of you!
Call it sacrilege, be offended, and join the crowd!
Are you for the free exchange of ideas or the free exchange of your ideas?
I for one believe that sanity is highly over rated. You need to be at one with your multiple personalities like the rest of the world is with theirs.
The market does not need to 100% free but it would work better than 100% controlled.
Do you own the computer you are typing on? Would you report me to the police for theft if I stole it from you? Or would you say he must have a greater need than I do so it’s OK? Think about it. If you are not free to own things are you really free?
A rich man should be as secure in his vast wealth as a poor man is in his meager wealth.
What you promote is not
What you promote is not security of wealth at all - you just have not the sense to see it. LOOK AT THE MARKET COLLAPSE.
I've seen references to organizations espousing the same nonsense as cited above - the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of property
it's a perversion, an experiment designed to bend perceptions and redefine our fundamental contract to the interest of a very select few. I do not approve. Not of the message, nor of those who peddle it.
cya
ZenDog, Down! Bad boy! Heal!
ZenDog,
Down! Bad boy! Heal! } ; = 8 P
Watch the language and tone, please. While I largely agree with your sentiments and disagree with Thunors position, he has every right to his opinion and to express it, and he is more than welcome to express it here without hostility or vitriol in return.
We can certainly challenge, contest and debate his opinion, even passionately, but we absolutely must not abuse him for sharing it. That entire "I think you're wrong so I'm going to verbally beat you into submission" attitude is the very thing that we find most repugnant about politics today, it is the central point that we think is wrong with our nation right now, and that the Coffee Party was formed to stand against.
We're here to have a civil discussion, and while that can certainly get heated with flaring passions, we must be careful not to cross the line into hate and vitriol.
"If you are to stand on the
That is what he said, I won't get into a debate over whether what he said or my response was the more objectionable, it's rather subjective on either hand.
The fact is that I have, in my possession, four separate diagnoses, none of them alike in terms, nor in definition, although, interestingly enough, the solution for each would seem to indicate medication . . .
I think it's fraud myself - but you know, try and prove it. In any case, I will not fear the label, nor will I succumb to coercion on that basis, nor will I provide tacit support for coercion via such means through silence.
He's a right to his opinion, as offensive, as malodorous as it may be. On that we agree one hundred percent. I just can't help myself - when I encounter fresh cow piles I like to give folks in the field a heads up - it stinks, and if you don't watch your step, can be quite messy . . .
I understand, and I fully
I understand, and I fully encourage you to challenge and debate him on it (I have, after all), but it is still each of our own responsibilities to uphold a spirit of civil conversation and discourse - passionate and heated, sure, but still ultimately respectful.
We'll get nowhere and ultimately defeat our own purpose if we reach for our sword at the first insult thrown our way. We're going to get many, and many worse than those presented here, but we must keep our heads through the worst of it, or our whole endeavor to reform the tone and nature of political discussion in this country will quickly end in failure.
There may certainly come a time when it is right to draw that sword and demand satisfaction, but only as a last resort, when all options and patience for civility have been utterly exhausted.
RE: I understand, and I fully
Thank you for the defense Ilithi.
I did get a reaction that I should have anticipated. I’m not sure if ZenDog is willing to debate.
I’m sure you noticed that he do not reply to the question about calling the cops. It is much easier to lash out & rant when you have an answer but you don’t have the fortitude to share it.
From what I gather from his comments he is upset at me for being honest & calls me coercive but has no qualms asking the government to coerce his fellow citizens to pay for his/her health care. I guess he/she is to cheap or lazy to get’er dun so everyone else should carry the dead weight.
I now see what you mean “gaming the system”. You are right that should be fixed.
Well, in ZenDog's defense
Well, in ZenDog's defense (yeah, I've got a nice, comfy la-z-boy bolted to the fence there } ; = 8 P ), your original post didn't lend itself well to a friendly discussion/debate. It WAS rather antagonistic, whether or not that was the intention.
To reiterate, though, it is still each of our own responsibilities to strive to maintain a civil discussion. There is nothing wrong with being passionate and getting into a heated discussion, so long as we avoid attacking each other, and we must all take care to avoid doing that.
Magical Market
Can you list one nation with a 100% free populace with a 100% uncontrolled market?
RE: Magical Market
Had Slavery been abolished from the onset of this country, we would have been the only one to have ever existed.
Yeah... To paraphrase Reagan
Yeah... To paraphrase Reagan in an especially fun way, removal of government isn't the solution to our problems. The lack of governance IS the problem.
See, the whole 100% Free Market Solution thing is 100% mystical karmic BS, to put it frank and bluntly (lunch break's almost over, so I only have time for fast and brutal, apologies for that).
If you want an example of unregulated free markets, look up the Gilded Age in American history, and also look up the cause of the Great Depression.
Without regulation, without protections and enforcement, PEOPLE CHEAT. Fact of life. People will game the system, cheat, slander, steal, lie, whatever they can do to get ahead. Not everyone, not even most everyone (at least, not to a great degree - we all cheat a little bit), but it doesn't take many people really cheating the system to spoil it for everyone else.
THAT is why we have government, THAT is why we have to regulate the markets and the economy, and THAT is why our economy has done best when the rich and wealthy were most heavily taxed and regulated (see post-WWII 40s, 50s and 60s).
To insist that unregulated free markets, with no checks against cheaters, etc., is the most perfect way, and that some mystical karmic force will balance everything out, to insist that some magical force will make everything good in the world, to deny that people will cheat and that a handful of cheaters can ruin everyone's day, and is just, plain, painfully stupid.
Again, apologies for hard-fast bluntness and brutality there, I'm rushed. Still the truth, though.
RE: Yeah... To paraphrase Reagan
Still no answer to my question.
If you READ what I wrote, I did not say 100% anything that was Cynic. I get that the Government needs to stand in the way of fraud, theft & enslavement. That however is the limit of their duty. Government was at its origin setup to by groups of people who wanted to protect themselves, their liberty and their property. We have a government set on owning you, limiting your liberty & taking your property.
If you take my property you take my liberty. If you take my freedom you take my life. These 3 things Life, Liberty & Property are bound so tightly that to limit one you limit the others.
Oh & BTW the Great depression was made longer by government regulation & bailouts. It took a war to get us out of what would have been a normal depression. Also people are gaming the system that the government has in place & that type of fraud will continue.
Oh, btw
You never actually asked a question. You made a statement and an ultimatum. What you said can basically be summed up as "X is the ONLY solution, and you either agree with me, or you're flippin' crazy." Further distilled, it is, "I demand X, and you are either with me, or against me."
Now, while I will be the first to admit that there is no question that I am insane (and the voices would make me even if I didn't want to ;P ), I am not devoid of logic and reasoning skills, and your logic is deeply flawed, both in the position you are arguing and the methods with which you are arguing. Having already addressed the logic of your premise, I will here address a few issues on your methods.
To have a question answered, you must first ask it. So I will ask you, what question are you asking of us? If it is whether or not we agree with you, I can tell you right now that the answer is a flat-out "No." If that is not the question, however, I am at a loss for an answer until the question is clarified.
More importantly, though, we are not here to make ultimatums. That is not the point or purpose of this group. We are here to present a myriad of ideas and possible solutions, examine and debate them, and resolve which among them is the best solution, providing the best results for the most people, based on the available data. All of this is done while promoting a spirit of open-minded discussion and debate; there is plenty of room for passionate debate and argumentation here, but there is no room for ultimatums and flat declarations (which are also bare assertion fallacies). Your ultimatum here is very divisive, something we are desperately trying to avoid, and is built upon inherently flawed logic (you have basically declared that you are right because anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, purely because you say so, which is both circular reasoning (I'm right, because they're wrong, because I'm right), and a bare assertion fallacy (X because I say so)).
You are more than welcome to argue your premise, even quite passionately, but please, PLEASE take great care to avoid divisive language, and to use sound logic in your argumentation. We are the movement of maturity and reason, and we must take great care to uphold those two core principles internally, holding ourselves to them, if we are to ever have any hope of (or right to, for that matter) holding the rest of the country to those same standards.
RE: Oh, btw
OK you are right it was not a question but a demand/request for a liberal mythical place. I'm not proud I will admit my error!!
“What I would like to see from you in your remarks is the inclusion of the name of any country that has not become despotic when the government had control over its people.”
I AM your diversity.
I am here to be a voice for the people who you disagree with.
I stand for Liberty, Life & the GOD given right for ALL the boys & girls to keep their property.
If you work for it, it’s yours & no one should have the right to take it. Taking of property is theft regardless who does it.
I expect no one to agree with me. I know my views are extreme & they are becoming more so.
One view that is not so radical – Violence will solve nothing. However, if confronted with violence overwhelm you opponent with greater violence. I will be as nice as I am treated.
Moral equivalence question: Who has a greater moral standing, a thief or a politician?
Answer: The Thief
Reason: The thief will take your possessions and leave you alone. The politician takes your possessions, tells you that it is in your best interest then returns for more.
A return for your investment
The underlying error in what you have presented so far is that you seem to be assuming that your taxes go toward things that you never benefit from. This is wrong. Taxes apply pressure where it is needed to keep the machines that people and corporations running. Taxes support roads, the military, the courts, law enforcement officers, trade agreements, job training -- literally thousands of things at every level. Taxes might represent a burden on the taxpayer, but a healthy market will adjust rewards accordingly. Without taxes, those functions of government that keep corporations able to hire people and people able to buy things and work for corporations go away. The market will cease to be healthy and so when the next wave of troubles hits and people are in need, the government won't be able to help and the market will be unable to compensate.
In comparing a politician to a thief, you are making an unsustainable generalization that either all politicians are corrupt, or that all politicians are ultimately taking your money and giving you nothing in return. A thief, meanwhile, takes nothing and gives you nothing in return by definition -- all the time.
RE: A return for your investment
Are you saying that if possessions are taken BY FORCE but may benefit you in some way then it is OK?
Is my decision to do with my property as I see fit immoral?
Does the “collective” have more of a right to my possessions than I do?
I believe that total taxation on any person or business that exceeds 10% is immoral. If you believe different then at what point does it become immoral?
If you can name 1 politician at the national level that served in the last 50 years that was not corrupt then name that person. The thief is not disingenuous about what he does.
And still no name of the country that survived massive government control without falling into despotism. HMMM? Maybe it never existed?
No Man is an Island
One of the fundamental underlying flaws in your argument, Thunor, is that everything that you earn is solely your property because only YOU contributed to earning it.
This is false. As I said, no man is an island. None of is is operating in a vacuum. We are each interdependent upon our neighbors. You owe everything that you own, every opportunity that you have ever had to do anything or make anything of your life to the society that you live in. In a complete absence of society, where it was just YOU providing everything for yourself, then yes, your argument would have some merit there. However, you would not have roads, cars, computers, libraries, schools, education, metal tools, any kind of medical care beyond the crudest back-woods improvised first aid, the list goes on.
The position you hold now, your job that allowed you to earn your money, buy your property, etc., is all dependent upon society, not only for those things to even exist, but also for you to have the opportunity to access them.
So you owe society, a LOT. And the amount that you owe society tends to be proportional to the amount of money you make, because the richer you are, the more dependent you are on society for everything that you have. That's why a graduated/progressive income tax should be implemented (and because the wealthy are better able to bear the tax burden than the lower-class, poor and impoverished).
If you want to live in society, you are obligated to provide a return for the services that society provides you. If you do not want to partake of those services, that is your prerogative, but you will have to give up everything, and I mean everything, that does not distinguish you from a caveman, that you cannot make yourself, from your own land, with your own hands, and nothing else, not even goods purchased from society, because society provides services in the development, production, marketing, sale and delivery of everything it produces, that are not covered in the cost of sale, are not paid directly by the retailer, the distributor, nor the manufacturer.
The moral argument of providing a return for the services that society provides you, and the moral argument of assisting your neighbors and striving to make the world a better place for yourself, your neighbors, and subsequent generations both aside, there is also the pragmatic argument to consider.
This country's economy has done best, in terms of real growth and strength (not just pretend growth from paper-trading) when taxes on the very wealthy were very high, when there was relatively heavy regulation on the market to prevent companies from cheating or making stupid risks or shortcuts for the sake of quarterly profit margins, etc. In the 1950s, the post-war boom era, the capital gains tax was two or three times what it is today. The income tax of the top earning bracket, the highest-earning people in the country, in the 1950s, was a whopping 95%. 95%!!! And the economy didn't crash, jobs didn't vaporize into nothing, the economy was BOOMING, and the wealth gap was the lowest it had been in history.
If we're talking about what is best for the country, as a whole, then high progressive tax rates on the rich, with firm clamp-downs on tax loopholes (or, at least, ones that don't encourage spending on products that will increase the flow of money through the economy, or provide charity/assistance/etc. to some group in need), and firm yet fair restrictions on ultra-large corporations and banks, and banking and stock-market policies in general, are the way to go (though ramping top-earner income brackets back up to the 95% range is rather excessive, and wouldn't be necessary, in my opinion).
If we are talking about what is best for each of us, individually, within a vacuum, then, Randian Objectivism would apply to a certain degree, but it doesn't apply (and doesn't work, for that matter) in real life because no man is an island, we are all interdependent on each other and dependent on society as a whole for all that we have and can be and do. So, in a lot of ways, what is best for us is what is best for society, because what is best for society will allow society to give us an increase in the services it provides us by its very nature, which can often be a far greater return than we would get by just 'pocketing' the investment strictly for ourselves.
Yeah, nobody likes paying taxes, but that's the cost of living in society, and having access to all the resources and opportunities that society provides us. None of that stuff comes free, even though there may be no up-front cost. It's like the apartment I live in. I hate paying rent, because it's a huge chunk out of my monthly salary. I would LOVE to not have to pay rent. But I don't want to live on the street or with my parents, either, nor am I ready or in a position to find a house and settle down somewhere.
I like the apartment I'm in; it's a nice apartment - decent size, modern amenities, very comfortable, and in a very nice community, not far from a lot of things (the commute to work is a bit more than I'd like, but no more than I'm used to from where I grew up). It would be nice to have all this for free, with no rent at all, but it just doesn't work that way. Taxes for the country/society are the same thing.
If there's anything in there that seems garbled or unclear, point it out and ask me, and I'll clarify sometime tomorrow; it's late here, and I've been up later than I should be.
RE: No Man is an Island
I see where you stand. I do not agree with your skewed ideals but I see where you stand.
You obviously do not get where I’m coming from or I am not being clear. The labor I put into a resource I have or purchase to add value creates wealth (great or small). When I sell that to a member of society it then becomes his property. If I by something I use my money to get what I need and society benefits from trade.
I don’t get you “logic” that no man is an island. DUH!
Once I purchase something from or trade with you I owe you nothing other than the agreed upon price. So long as there is no fraud we both benefit.
Oh, I certainly get where you
Oh, I certainly get where you are coming from; I have just dismissed the conclusion of your premise, after careful consideration, much as I have dismissed Randian Objectivism and its attempts to justify rampant and unchecked self-interest as not only just and moral, but the ONLY thing that is truly just and moral.
Now, true, after purchasing or trade a good or service from me, you no longer owe me anything, or vice-versa. But I am not saying that you owe me, specifically, as an individual, any more than the fair or agreed-upon value of the goods/services I provide you with.
I am saying that you owe SOCIETY for your ability and opportunity to generate the wealth/resources you used to purchase my goods, the opportunity to purchase my goods, and everything that goes beyond a caveman with hand-made, early-stone-age tools, walking through an untamed wilderness.
The security you have in your home from thieves, murderers, highwaymen, vandals, etc. you owe society. Society provides the protection you get from having everything you own stolen, and society also provides measures to regain, insure, and seek justice against anyone who manages to circumvent that protection. Society is also responsible for every single opportunity you have to generate wealth. If you were not born into this society, or any society at all, your ability to generate the wealth in goods and services that you have today, would not exist. Say you were born in a remote village in Kenya, or as a native in apartheid South Africa, or a commoner equal to your current overall standing in the wealth spectrum, in medieval Europe. You would not have anywhere near the same opportunities to get the same kind of return in wealth and resources for your time and labor that you would here and now, in this society.
It is society, and its social services, that protect you and give you with the vast array of opportunities that you have. But that does not come freely, because society has its own expenses, and in return for giving you the enhanced safety, security, etc. of society, you are required to think beyond just yourself, but also to consider the collective whole, and how you can improve society, as well as your own situation.
RE: Oh, I certainly get where you
You are correct to point out "The security you have in your home from thieves, murderers, highwaymen, vandals, etc. you owe society. Society provides the protection you get from having everything you own stolen, and society also provides measures to regain, insure, and seek justice against anyone who manages to circumvent that protection", except that we also have the right to defend ourselves from those folks (2nd amendment).
That is where government duties end. The taxes I pay would be miniscule if the feds would keep their promise to abide in the US Constitution. I am more than willing to pay my fair share of the government’s enumerated duties, as are most folks. I am however, not willing to pay the feds to be the largest charity that ever existed.
As to what I owe society, I only owe society success and to allow others to succeed. Government creates nothing, government only consumes wealth.
This country has achieved its position, it wealth and its available opportunities because of INDIVIDUAL successes.
Social services are not a federally enumerated government duty. I would suggest that since social services started in this country we have been on a moral decline. We ignore the needs of our neighbors because we have “paid our fair share” into the system. We let our old folks move into government paid for homes so we don’t have to bother because we “paid our fair share”. Social services are destructive.
If you want productive social services then we can use the not-for-profit organizations and religious organizations to perform this duty. They would spend more wisely and hold people accountable not just throw money at a problem. They get involved with those folks in need.
You are correct to point out
You are correct to point out "The security you have in your home from thieves, murderers, highwaymen, vandals, etc. you owe society. Society provides the protection you get from having everything you own stolen, and society also provides measures to regain, insure, and seek justice against anyone who manages to circumvent that protection", except that we also have the right to defend ourselves from those folks (2nd amendment).
Actually, the 2nd Amendment says absolutely NOTHING about self-defense and the defense of the home. The 2nd Amendment, citing the need for a well-regulated militia, gives the right to keep and bear arms.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Absolutely NOTHING in there specifically enumerates a right to defend one's home, property, etc. If you take a strict interpretation of the constitution through only what it specifically enumerates, there is absolutely nothing mentioned about the right to defend one's home and property. It is an implied right, but not specifically enumerated (or, at least, not in the 2nd Amendment).
That is where government duties end. The taxes I pay would be miniscule if the feds would keep their promise to abide in the US Constitution. I am more than willing to pay my fair share of the government’s enumerated duties, as are most folks. I am however, not willing to pay the feds to be the largest charity that ever existed.
As to what I owe society, I only owe society success and to allow others to succeed. Government creates nothing, government only consumes wealth.
This country has achieved its position, it wealth and its available opportunities because of INDIVIDUAL successes.
Social services are not a federally enumerated government duty. I would suggest that since social services started in this country we have been on a moral decline. We ignore the needs of our neighbors because we have “paid our fair share” into the system. We let our old folks move into government paid for homes so we don’t have to bother because we “paid our fair share”. Social services are destructive.
If you want productive social services then we can use the not-for-profit organizations and religious organizations to perform this duty. They would spend more wisely and hold people accountable not just throw money at a problem. They get involved with those folks in need.
Article 1, Section 8:
"The Congress shall have power To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"
Very beginning of Section 8. The underlined is called the Common Defense and General Welfare clause, that SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATES that Congress has the power to lay and collect taxes, etc., and spend federal funds as it sees fit to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the U.S. It does not specifically enumerate WHAT projects Congress can enact to provide for the general welfare, leaving that up to Congress, for the same reason that it doesn't specifically enumerate what projects Congress can enact to provide for the common defense, as the Framers of the Constitution knew full well that they could not anticipate every potential problem the country would face, let alone come up with perfect solutions to those problems.
You owe society for public libraries, the roads you travel on, our public school system that is freely available to all children (though not yet equal in quality to all children), the fire departments, the state forest and national park programs, the list goes on and on. Our society and government provides us with so many services beyond just basic defense of ourselves and our property, far too many to mention, that are all covered under the General Welfare clause.
To say that "Congress can do this, and only this, and absolutely nothing more" is sheer stupidity. It is willful ignorance of the fact that the future is unpredictable, and that society and situations and the issues government has to deal with, and its solutions to those issues, are constantly changing, and often change radically over extended periods of time.
It is also blatantly ignorant of our own history, because it shows ignorance of why the Articles of Confederation failed so miserably, and why we even have the Constitution in the first place. The Articles of Confederation, which WERE our constitution originally, specifically enumerated very, very limited, de-centralized powers to Congress, and specifically stated that Congress did not have the authority to take action beyond those specifically enumerated powers, which required a unanimous vote in Congress to modify or add to (plus ratification from all the states). Congress couldn't do ANYTHING, because it didn't have the ability to raise funds (Congress could request taxes, but the states could ignore those requests), and didn't have the authority to DO much at all, and much of what it could do could just be ignored by the states. The Constitution we have today was created from the catastrophe of a weak central government that was left at the whims of the local state governments. We NEED to have a strong central government with broad implied powers to enact legislation (specifically enumerated to be for the common defense and general welfare of the country, not just congressional whims and fancies) to be able to function as a nation.
Also, the whole "States Rights" thing is really BS, because State Government is no different than Federal Government, save for scale, and both are large enough to be effectively on the same scale relative to individuals and local communities.
RE: A return for your investment
The RIGHT to own & bear arms: Have you read the PA Constitution?
If the feds violate the PA constitution, PA has NO duty to comply with their demands.
Article I section 1:
Inherent Rights of Mankind
Section 1.
All men are born equally free and independent, and have certain inherent and indefeasible rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing and protecting property and reputation, and of pursuing their own happiness.
Right to Bear Arms
Section 21.
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
Additionally, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” What do you think this means? It is our protection from home invasion, theft, murder & the government if they become despotic. This right is the last resort to protect ourselves; fortunately we are not there yet.
“The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms”. James Madison
You are also forgetting:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
When the government violates these amendments, they are not fulfilling their duty.
“Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions”. James Madison
RE: Thunor, NONE of those things
You have used the "elastic" clause in a more generous fashion than I have with the 2nd amendment.
Why would the government give itself the right to own arms then have an amendment reiterating it? That would be redundant & is a ridiculous assertion. The citizen militia is what helped create this country and helped to win the revolution.
IF liberal is supposed to mean expanding liberty, why can you not see that liberty is held in place by the citizens possessing firearms? The Federal government has no authority to supersede any state’s constitution. SCOTUS has already made that judgment.
I don't have any issues with
I don't have any issues with the owning of firearms (I have a .30-06 Mossberg 100 ATR locked in a gun cabinet in my livingroom, and enjoy firing it when I have the time/money for extra ammunition (hunt with it occasionally, too, but I'm not big into hunting), and I would like to get a pistol, as well as a license to carry concealed, when I have the extra $$$ to do so). I was simply pointing out that, per the specific enumeration of the 2nd Amendment, it says nothing about the defense of property, etc. All it says is that the people have the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of maintaining a well-regulated militia (the modern equivalent of the Revolutionary militia is the National Guard and Reserves, btw, not private citizens who own rifles for recreational sport or self-defense, and are not part of any militia of any kind, let alone the well-regulated kind).
I also don't have any problems with the regulation of firearms and firearms sales; they ARE very dangerous weapons that are quite easily capable of robbing someone of their right to life, whether intentionally or not, and so should be carefully regulated (though part of that should also include a much greater and more extensive education of firearms, with an emphasis on safety and proper use, etc.).
But that's beside the point. The 2nd Amendment specifically says that the people have the right to keep and bear arms, but also specifically notes the PURPOSE for which they are to keep and bear arms (as part of a well-regulated state militia). I was simply pointing this out - the 2nd Amendment does grant the right to bear arms, but only for a specific purpose (it is the 9th Amendment that is more arguably in favor of allowing the right to keep and bear arms for recreational purposes, especially if combined with the 2nd Amendment). Article I, sections 8 and 18 combined specifically enumerate to congress the ability to pass legislation, create and fund projects and programs that provide for the common defense and general welfare. Section 8 specifically grants Congress this power, and mandates its use, and Section 18 clearly grants Congress the power to enact all legislation that is necessary and proper to pursue that end. That was specifically part of why those sections were included, and phrased with such general and ambiguous language (because the Articles of Confederation did not grant Congress the power to do anything but what it was specifically enumerated to do, which fatally limited its effectiveness as a governing body, and is a key part of why the Articles of Confederation failed, and were replaced with the Constitution we have today).
Thunor, NONE of those things
Thunor,
NONE of those things you listed are the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. The specifics of the PA Constitution are irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion because we are not discussing the PA Constitution or PA government, but the Federal Constitution and Federal government, and furthermore, the Federal Constitution supercedes anything in the state constitutions per the Supremacy Clause, which establishes the U.S. Constitution as the Supreme Law of the land.
Furthermore, the 4th Amendment was written to address unreasonable searches and seizures conducted by the government, not theft, home invasion, etc. conducted by common criminals. The wording is ambiguous enough to cover that, but again, it does not describe any right to defend ones property, etc.
The 9th Amendment could be used to argue for the right to bear arms and the right to defend one's home, property, etc., but again, this does not change the fact that the 2nd Amendment, which you referenced and which I refuted, says absolutely nothing about the right of private citizens to defend their homes, property, etc. It only says that the people can keep and bear arms for the purposes of maintaining a well-regulated militia (which most people do NOT have guns for).
The 10th Amendment again does not change the fact that the 2nd Amendment says nothing about the right to defend one's home, property, etc. Furthermore, it doesn't help your argument about states doing things instead of congress Re: social 'charity' programs, etc., as Article I, Section 8 specifically grants the power to Congress to create and fund such programs.
There has been no violation of these amendments by the U.S. government.
You're free to...
Well, I won't say that because it's childish and because complaining about how the country operates is part of our thing. But there's sort of a point to it. On one hand, your money is being taken by force because if you don't comply, you'll be put in jail. On the other hand, those are the rules we all abide by here, but no one is stopping you from leaving. I don't mean to say you should, though. My point is, being able to set the rules is what makes a nation a nation. If you did leave, you'd have to comply with whatever laws were being enforced in whatever country you ended up in. Right? So there's an element of choice in this "force" you speak of that. You've got a range of different nations to chose from, and you've chosen this one.
It may be true that there aren't any that suit you, of course. But why do you suppose that is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
According to this, one of your best bets is Bulgaria, though it's right on the very edge of immorality. To me, the point of immorality is when you're taking more than the market will compensate for. Again it seems like I have more confidence in the market than you do.
I cannot name any politician who isn't corrupt for the simple reason that I don't in my possession the power to know that. It is also true that you do not have in your possession the power to know that they are all corrupt. But simple parsimony suggests that my claim that there are honest politicians is more likely to be true than your claim that there aren't any. I think to a large extent you are conflating what it is politicians do with your displeasure with the results.
As for countries with massive government control without falling into despotism, that is again a relative call. I think you should define your terms.
RE: You're free to...
I do pay my taxes. I love my country. I know there is no better place on earth. That said, does not mean that things do not need to be fixed.
Can a law passed by legal means that does not comply with the Constitution stand? Is it law? Is it legal? Are we to comply with unjust, illegal & immoral laws without question?
What does a country look like after it has complete government control of the people & industry?
What is the tipping point of too much government?
Separation of Powers
Unconstitutional laws are passed legally all the time -- that's why the judicial branch is charged with interpreting and, if necessary, overturning laws. It's important to remember when we're comparing America to other nations to consider those other nation's governmental structure. Our system of checks and balances is pretty effective and I wonder if you're taking it into account, or factoring its possible lack in those other nations you suspect we're going to be like.
The thing is, sometimes it takes time to bubble those mistakes up to the top and vent them. But they do go eventually. In the meantime, we do what we're expected to do for any set of laws: comply and trust the system. Vigilantes may feel justified, but a society based on law and order requires that most citizens comply. Sure, there are plenty of examples in history where a little civil disobedience has been required to expedite the process of correction, but that only proves that the process works.
I asked you to define your terms for a reason. The notions of "control" and "too much government" are relative and and often conflated with other concepts. For instance, there is a difference between controlling and restricting. A controlling government tells you what to do. A restrictive government tells you what not to do. It's possible to express any given set of desired behavior in terms of either but the difference is more than a matter of semantics. Our legal system is restrictive one, coupled to a set of rights that are treated as sacrosanct. That allows for maximum variation, where restrictions are ideally only applied when failure to restrict has been shown or will in theory result in undesirable consequences for other people in the system. A controlling government takes the opposite approach in which your rights and those rules are indistinguishable. A country that has "complete" governmental control of its people and industry wouldn't be defined as restrictive.
The thing about too much government is, you need to first establish how big it ought to be before you can call it too big, and that depends on what you see its role in being. That much is obvious. What might not be obvious is that the snowballing effect of established law and expanding role isn't necessarily a sign of failure but of success. Think about it as a form of maturation. As we grow as people, we accumulate knowledge and experience, figure out what works and what doesn't, and all the while our competence and sense of responsibility grow, hand in hand, and we're adults. Well, America isn't a young nation anymore. We've grown up and we're better for it.
IMO, "too much" government isn't a measure of size or degree of control. Rather than thinking in those terms, it's better to wonder if a government is beneficial, malignant, or benign.
RE: Separation of Powers
The checks & balances were damaged by the 17th amendment. Senators were originally to hold the place of an advocate for the states & the rights & privileges that were granted them in the US Constitution.
The Constitution is a contract between the citizens & the government. So long as they honor their oath & RESTRICTED duties, we will obey the laws they pass. When they pass law after law that is not constitutional, moral or just; “We the people” have an obligation to resist them and remove them from office.
Yes, most of us obey the law even when it is wrong. Most of us do not want to pay the price to do what is right when the law is wrong. I guess we are all cowards.
Since you have moved to rights what rights are immutable for every adult?
Freedom of speech or remain silent?
Own & bear arms?
Freedom of religion (including to have one or not)?
To drive?
To own, use & dispose of property?
Freedom of the press?
The right to a trial by jury?
Is life a right?
Do you have ownership of your body?
How are my rights protected from those who would willingly take them? What if the taker is the government?
How does the 17th Ammendment
How does the 17th Ammendment damage the system of checks and balances? It makes two alterations to the original text of the constitution, which it largely repeats verbatim: First, and most significantly, it changes the elections of the senate from a vote by the state legislatures, to a vote by the people of each state. In essence, it transfers the power of election of each state's senatorial representative more directly into the hands of the people. The second change is the addition that allows a state's governor (who has authorization of the state's legislature) to appoint a Senator in the event of an absence, to serve until the next election (as happened when Senator Kennedy died).
How does that upset the system of checks and balances?
Furthermore, the wording of the Constitution is such that the powers of government are NOT restricted to those powers specifically outlined and enumerated in the Constitution. The Government has the full authority of the Constitution to provide for the general welfare of the people, so long as the rights of the people are not infringed upon in the process.
As for the rights of the people... The most basic rights are the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - as the Constitution so eloquently describes, these are inherent and self-evident. In the intervening centuries, we may have worked out another inherent, self-evident right or two to add to that, but that is a topic for a philosophical discussion of gargantuan proportions, and not relevant to our purposes here.
So long as the rights of others are not unreasonably infringed upon, we have the fundamental right to the assurance of and pursuit of these basic rights, and also the other rights specifically enumerated by the Constitution, as well as any that have not been specifically enumerated.
As for what ARE rights we have... That is a lenghty discussion. A clarification on what we see as rights, and reasonable and unreasonable infringements of those rights, may help to aid the conversation, though. So let's start with the list you have provided.
1. Freedom of speech - Obvious and inherent, something we all have, though 'freedom of speech' does not allow one to randomly scream "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre, or walk into a public hearing and start cursing at the judge, etc.
2. Own & bear arms - A testy issue. The specific, literal wording of the Constitution is specifically for well-regulated militias, of which the most comparable structure today would be the National Guard and Reserves. The Constitution does not specifically grant the allowance of the right to own and bear arms outside of a regulated militia.
That said, so long as there is no unreasonable threat to the life, liberty and happiness of others, the owning of firearms should not be restricted. However, as they can very easily be used to infringe upon the rights to life, liberty and happiness, and many other rights, their ownership and use should be well-regulated and monitored.
3. Freedom of religion - As with Freedom of Speech, this is obvious and inherent, and the separation of church and state is specifically enumerated.
4. To drive - Questionable as to whether driving is itself something that can be described as a 'right'; everyone has the right to use equipment they own, rent, or have otherwise obtained permission from the owners/renters to use, but as driving can also create a significant threat to the life and welfare of others, it should be well-regulated and monitored. The current system of instructional testing and licensing is perfectly valid under those premises.
5. To own, use & dispose of property - THIS is a particularly interesting question. Is owning property really an inherent right? Thomas Paine made a very interesting case, in his argument for a progressive tax on property-owners to fund a universal stipend payment upon reaching the age of 21 and 55 (of some $21,000 and $15,000 in today's money, respectively), that the owning of property isn't necessarily a natural right, but a right granted by society/civilization. Paine argues that, in nature, the ownership of property/land is non-existent, and that prior to civilization, each man/woman was free to move through any land, because it equally belonged to all. Paine's argument was that civilization/society should only improve upon the natural state of man, or at the very least leave specific conditions neutral or provide for compensation of any detriment. Any area that was not improved upon by civilization/society, or at least maintained or compensated for to equal that of the natural state, was a flaw in civilization/society. Paine argued that, as the ownership of property (and his arguments can be applied to any property, be it land or otherwise) infringed upon the natural state of no ownership, and excluded the majority of the population from access to certain lands/items/etc., restricting access to only a bare few, or even just one, the right of property ownership granted by civilization was creating a reduced state of being from the natural state for those who did not own each piece of property, and so it was the responsibility of the civilization/society, and the obligation of the property-owners, to provide due compensation for this reduction from the natural state.
Paine's argument, which is a good example of many arguments that have been made, is that the right to own property is not a natural right, but a right granted by civilization/society, and that that right comes at a cost to compensate for the infringement upon the natural state of others that that right creates.
6. Freedom of the press - I hesitate to say that this is inherent, as 'the press' is an arbitrary structure of society, which has notably deviated from what it was defined as at the time which the constitution was framed, which had not existed in that form through the vast majority of human civilization, and which looks to be further evolving and changing into something very different, possibly into a whole new entity/structure of society. Perhaps Freedom of Information would be a more accurate description. That, I would say, is an inherent and self-evident right - the freedom to access knowledge and information (even the concept that 'knowledge is free' could be argued here), where such access to and dissemination of information does not infringe upon the rights of others by creating a threat to national security, or by infringing on the right to privacy.
6a. Privacy - This we can say is not a natural right, as it has no relevance outside of a civilization/society, and is arbitrarily defined by civilization/society. Therefore, it is a right of civilization/society, and its definition is adaptable to the changing circumstances of civilization/society (indeed, the very concept of 'privacy' as we know it may one day soon become obsolete thanks to advancing technology - sufficiently advanced, distributed and integrated technology, all of which is not far beyond what we have now, could relegate the concept of 'privacy' to our inner minds and intimate physical acts).
7. The right to a trial by jury - This is another right of civilization/society, arbitrarily defined and designed to promote justice by creating a pool of (presumably) common peers, who would be more likely to see broad and multiple viewpoints and perspectives, and less susceptible to individual bias and corruption than a lone judge. It is not a natural right, and therefore could be superseded by other methods should civilization/society develop new, and superior ways of ensuring a fair and just hearing.
8. Life - Inherently and self-evidently, this is a right. The fact that we exist and live, and all things that do strive to continue their existence and life, and just the very fact that we are makes this self-evident. This does not supersede other natural rights, however, nor does our right to life allow us to unreasonably infringe upon the natural rights of others.
9. Do you have ownership of your body? - I would say yes, in away; the body is a natural part of the self, so you don't so much own your body, as it is a part of the entity that is you. The right to the personal sanctity of your body would be protected under the other natural rights, such as Life, Liberty, and Happiness, to the extent that it does not create an unreasonable infringement upon the natural rights of others (as with all rights).
RE: How does the 17th Ammendment
Let us do this one at a time.
The 17th amendment changed the way Senators are chosen. Prior to its passage, Senators were appointed by the states’ and approved by their Senate. This meant that they were accountable to the state government. The Senators had to keep the rights & privileges of their state in their thoughts at all times.
Now after the passage of the amendment we have 6 year glorified elected representatives of people of the states. I know this is a small difference but the problem is the states were supposed to be yet another check/balance to the Federal government to keep the feds from its self-serving power grab. This was to prevent the central power of USA from coalescing in Washington. That balance is now gone and all of the power IS migrating to Washington.
In regard to rights we do share at least one common idea. So long as your rights do not infringe on my rights we can live in harmony. In regard to health care – You must violate my rights to give another right to someone else, thus making it incompatible with the US Constitution.
I do have a question: If the right to own property is not a natural right, then how can anyone prosper or live in freedom?
Re 17th Amendment: The change
Re 17th Amendment:
The change leaves the Senators still beholden to the states. Instead of being beholden to the state congress/government, which is in turn beholden to the state's people, they are more directly beholden to the people of their state. The objective of their office is still to represent the state and the state's interest, though, and that hasn't changed. How does the Senate being elected directly by the people of each state instead of the government of the state (which should be by, for and of the people anyway) create a power flow towards Washington? You have claimed that this is so, but have not described HOW and WHY it is so.
Re Central Government:
It seems that you have a very high paranoia of centralized government, and operate under the conviction that a centralized government ALWAYS and INHERENTLY self-corrupts unless fiercely controlled by lesser/local governments, and that centralized government is good for very, very little at all. I contest this conviction, and while I freely admit that any concentration of power is prone to corruption and abuse, our centralized federal government is specifically designed with checks and balances against that, and while not perfect (no system is), it's done a fairly good job of it the last 200+ years.
Furthermore, you focus on States Rights, etc., but as I mentioned previously, the only difference between State Government and Federal Government is just a matter of scale. The State Government is just as much a centralized government system as the Federal Government, just on a slightly smaller scale. County Government is also much the same, though on a scale approaching that which is more easily accessible to the average individual.
Lastly, as we learned with our experiment under the Articles of Confederation, a weak central government that is utterly beholden to the States is disastrously ineffective, and quickly results in a fundamental breakdown of the functioning of the nation.
Re Healthcare and conflicting rights:
Does another person's fundamental right to life have less value than your fundamental right to the pursuit of happiness?
In any society of a size greater than 1, there will always be some conflict between the fundamental rights of individuals. Two people cannot function together without infringing on the other; sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. To live and function in society, all of us are required to accept some infringement of our rights, both natural and societal, so long as those infringements remain within the limits of reason relative to the situation. It is not beyond the bounds of reason for you to sacrifice some small percentage of your income (or perhaps larger percentage if you make a lot of money relative to the rest of society) so that others in society can be assured of their right to life (healthcare).
And that's really how societies work - individuals working together, cooperating and compromising, for the common good and to increase the overall quality of life.
Re Property, prosperity and freedom:
Freedom is a natural right, and in the natural state, outside of society/civilization, you are completely free. You don't need to own property to be free. Having things helps protect that, and owning property helps give you weight in ensuring your continued freedom in society, but property ownership is not, in and of itself, required for freedom. Primordial humans, before they had invented the concept of property, were perfectly free entities, just as a wolf, or a fish, or a bird are all perfectly free entities (or, at least, they were before our civilization rose and began infringing on where they could go, what they could do, etc.), so freedom can be had without property.
Prosperity is a societal construction. In the natural state, outside of society/civilization, the concept of prosperity is non-existent. It is purely societal, like the concept of property ownership, and is not directly linked to property ownership (though they are often found together). Prosperity is also a very subjective concept, as what one man may find himself prosperous with a good home, a loving family, and a steady, moderately plentiful income, while another man may only consider vast stores of wealth and resources prosperity.
Re: Re 17th Amendment: The change
We obviously disagree. The state government’s rights are overlooked when the Senators are following the whims of their constituents. Again, this makes them glorified representatives. If that is what we need, then why the separation of the houses?
Your simple version of my health care vs. your property is disingenuous. I have the right to get all the heath care I can afford or ask for a “not for profit”/”religious organization” /neighbor to help me get the service. Who with this bill made law will not die? I tell you the truth ALL will die even with health care.
In regard to property, who owns your wallet, the money in your bank account, your car, your bike, your clothes, your food? Certainly not society, you do. If you are not secure in your possessions we are not safe from tyranny.
Re Senators: The purpose of
Re Senators:
The purpose of the two separate houses is to help give equal representation to the states individually, and by population. With just a straight House of Representatives where the number of representatives is proportional to the population, those states with lower population would be under-represented compared to those states with higher populations, giving an advantage to states with a lot of people over those states that don't have a lot of people. With just a straight Senate, where each state gets the same number of votes, the people in the states with higher populations would be under-represented compared to those states with lower populations. The dual-house system is designed to balance those two issues out - the high-population states have greater representation in the House, but the low-population states have greater representation in the Senate.
I see your point about senators being chosen by state gov't instead of state people, but as I feel that all government should be by, for and of the people, and that the state gov't should just be representing the people anyway, there is little ultimate difference between the two methods (and it gives more power to the people, who may have otherwise been hamstrung by corruption or biases in their state governments, such as with civil rights issues in the South). A disagreement in perspective, but ultimately a minor one, I think.
Re Healthcare:
The problem is that our right to healthcare should not be dependent upon our financial means, or the altruism of whatever charities may or may not be available to us. Again, the whole premise of this argument is based on the assumption that we will either 1. have the money to pay for whatever healthcare we need, or 2. we will be able to depend upon the altruism of some charity or 'good samaritan' to help us if we are in need. For the vast majority of people in the vast majority of cases of serious medical issues (and for many people in a lot of cases of basic medical check-ups and preventative care), #1 is out because they do not have the money themselves to pay for their medical expenses - most people just don't have an extra $5,000 - $50,000+ lying around to cover an emergency operation, even after insurance deductibles, and many people don't have the money to afford a decent insurance policy on their own.
So we're left with #2, depending on the altruism of others for our fundamental rights to healthcare (and we have already long-established this right, as evidenced by long-standing laws that require hospitals to treat patients, regardless of who they are or how much money they have, what insurance they have, etc.). Again, this is an extremely naive or extremely insensitive position.
Yes, ideally, our compassion and concern for our neighbors would lead all of us to give whatever we can spare to help those in such critical need. Unfortunately, the world just doesn't work that way, so we have to rely on other means to ensure the funding for this fundamental right.
As for dying... Yes, everyone will eventually die (well, I intend to live forever, but that's beside the point), but the issue isn't eventual death, it's untimely death. It can't always be prevented, but we have pragmatic, moral and ethical obligations to do take every reasonable step to prevent it (and it is far from beyond reason to require those of us who are more well-off, and able to support the burden, to help provide funding for those efforts).
Re property:
Still all just a construct of society. Property is not a natural right, because the concept of property does not exist outside of society, and even WITHIN society, the concept of property varies between cultures. Property is not required to be free from tyranny. You can live in a society where you own nothing, everything is shared communally, and still be as free as in any society where you own property (and this has been done before many times, from one-horse-town rural communities where there was literally one, communally-shared horse, to full-fledged experiments in communal property communities). None of those communities were less free than you or I because they shared their things.
Property is a societal concept, a societal right, and is dependent as much on culture as it is on base society as a whole.
The 17th Amendment?
I know there can be problems with having senatorial vacancies filled by temporary appointment, but I'm at a loss as to how you feel our rights are suffering as a result. Or are you against the idea of direct elections for senators and would rather they were selected by some other means? This isn't clear.
The fundamental problem with your argument, however, is that you want to reserve the right to determine the proper interpretation of your rights and their duties for yourself and those who think like you only, and not in the hands of those who were elected to represent everybody or the courts as dictated by the Constitution, which I'd otherwise gathered so far is a document you feel we should follow. Your statements about law after law which have been passed that are not constitutional, moral, or just... what you're really saying is that you, Thunor, disagree with them and everyone else's opinion on that be damned. We are not cowards -- we simply don't agree on everything, as was predicted. The constitution suggests that these things be worked out naturally, through the courts, the election system, and through appeals to our elected officials. what you're advocating is an affront to the very document you claim to respect. The taker is supposed to be the government. That's why we have one. The system is designed such that they only take what is necessary.
Rights are a tricky subject, but by their very nature it should come as no surprise that we have fewer of them today than we did at our inception. That's a good thing because it means we've grown and matured. Unrestricted rights mean that people are empowered to infringe upon the rights of others so that eventually, to guarantee equal rights, restrictions are put in place to prevent that. The goal is the greatest degree for the greatest number, not the greatest degree or the greatest number.
But of course things that are both unconstitutional and wrong are passed all the time. And they're also reversed all the time too. If a given issue comes up long enough, the Constitution gets amended to deal with it. That's how it works, how it was designed to work. It gets better as we go along, not worse.
Nobody's claiming that the
Nobody's claiming that the system we have is perfect; there will always be room for improvement, and finding ways to fix problems and optimize systems is part of our main objective here.
Some solutions have already been well-tested and analyzed, though. Unless you propose additional taxes to make up for lost revenue (and we're talking about a lot of taxes here), a maximum income tax rate of 10% across the board just will not work. Income taxes are one of, if not the main source of revenue for the federal government, and it needs money to operate. Sure, there are plenty of things that can be done to reduce inefficiencies and waste, unnecessary and ultimately ineffectual spending (a military budget that literally surpasses the combined total military budgets of the rest of the entire planet, without anything remotely comparable to a serious military opponent, is one big example), etc. However, a LOT of government spending is necessary, many of it absolutely critical, and even a lot that isn't necessary or critical is very beneficial. All of those programs cost money, and a 10% income tax rate across the board just won't cut it in providing enough money, ESPECIALLY since it would constitute an income tax reduction for a majority of Americans (and especially the richest Americans, who shoulder the majority of the tax burden).
All you have to do to see what happens when the federal government doesn't have the ability to raise the taxes it needs to fund itself is look at the period in U.S. history immediately after the Revolution, before the Constitution was written and we were operating under the Articles of Confederation. The Fed Gov. did not have the authority to raise taxes and enforce them, only to request money from the states, and surprise surprise, very little money was ever paid. As such, the government, Continental Army, etc. were all chronically short of funds (which partly contributed to Shay's Rebellion, among other issues).
Again, we owe society a lot more than just a mere 10% of our income, because that would never cover the cost of the services provided to us by society that we use throughout our lives, if we were to try and pay for them ourselves (let alone the opportunity to make as much as we do that our society provides us; your level of wealth and resources would be far lower if you were born in, say, Kenya, or Madagascar, for example). Especially if we have a lot of wealth and resources, because we are even more dependent upon society to even have that wealth and resources than we would if we had average or below-average wealth and resources.
And, again, a 10% income tax across the board just is not practical, not unless you raise other taxes to cover the massive deficits that would result (and you would need a LOT of taxes). The Fed Gov. would go bankrupt, defaulting left and right across the board, because of the current debts it owes and the vital operations it cannot suspend (let alone the operations and public services it technically can suspend, but would be severely damaging if it did).
As for laws that do not comply with the Constitution... That's what the Supreme Court is for, to verify laws against the Constitution. That's why we have three branches of government designed to check and balance each other, on top of a written constitution, with a bill of rights.
If a law does pass through all three branches of government, but is obviously contrary to the constitution and public wellfare, then it is the responsibility of the people to protest, and vote for change by voting out the people who voted for the new law (if it is contrary to the former but not the latter, a constitutional amendment may called for). A worst-case scenario is an armed uprising to overthrow a government that has decayed into an authoritarian regime. However, we are still a long way from that point, and our system was specifically designed to give us a lot of options before reaching that point.
As for what a country looks like when the gov. has complete control over the people and industry? Well, to be honest, we don't really know for sure. N. Korea could arguably come close as one example, but even then the Gov. doesn't have complete control over the people. The Borg Collective, maybe?
History does have plenty of examples of where the gov. does have effective control over everything, though; that's actually 99% of human history, in fact (only the last 300 years or so has seen the rise of government 'by the people, for the people, of the people', a rise of unimpeded free markets, etc.). But even then, those are all examples of oligarchy, which arguably is a subornation of government (which has now been established to be a structure of the people, an institution to provide for the common good, etc. etc.) than government itself. Most of history we had feudalism-enforced oligarchy, justified by Divine Right, or just might of arms. There was little, if any system established to truly provide for the protection of the people and their rights, provide justice, etc. There were laws, of course, and they were usually enforced, but the ruling oligarchs were often not subject to them, and the laws rarely protected against abuses by the ruling oligarchs, and almost never provided any checks or balances against their power.
More recently we've had various communist countries, but even then, it's hard to say those are good examples of what happens when an actual, functioning government has control over everything, because the governments of Soviet Russia and Communist China, as two main examples, were anything but functional. the USSR was technically a democratic republic, much like the U.S., but it didn't work that way because it lacked a strong set of checks and balances to prevent abuses of power (and the revolutionaries who managed to seize power and set up the USSR were far from the outstanding examples of selfless moral fortitude like our own Washington, Franklin, etc.). Ultimately, they were still just oligarchies dressed up and playing pretend at democracy and functional government.
The question of how much government is too much government is a very good question, and also one that is difficult to answer.
Personally, I tend to be of the opinion that government should largely leave the general individual to his or her own devices, save where it impinges on the rights, health, safety, etc. of others. For the most part, following that with logical, well-reasoned regulations and restrictions to keep people from hurting, cheating, taking advantage of others, etc. will largely do for most every-day things.
I do feel, though, that there is a lot of value to collectivism, and while we have to be careful that the rights, etc. of the individual are not unduly impinged upon, it is very hard to ethically justify leaving people without support or aid in times of need to avoid taxing those who have plenty, and pragmatically speaking, as none of us operate in a vacuum, what benefits the community/society tends to benefit us individually. So programs to provide support and assistance to those less fortunate should receive strong funding, with emphasis on programs that are designed to help people help themselves (though programs that provide straight assistance, both short-term disaster relief-type programs and long-term support programs, do have their place and their uses). Government programs that provide community/social support and community/social programs that help the needy, and also promote increased equal opportunity (support for college, increased public education, parks, museums, libraries, etc. etc. etc.), are very important, and to implement those programs, government has the right to impose taxes, etc. Government research programs and research funding, too, are valuable.
I also feel that, as part of government's responsibility to protect its people, government has the right to step into the economy. It should not be a daily occurrence, the economy should be largely left to itself with the only daily presence of government being the system of firm regulations to prevent abuses of the market system, plus government contracts to various businesses for regular government services (road construction, etc.). Government should have the power to step in when abuses get extreme, however, or the economy goes south very badly. Monopolies and corporate abuses should largely be dealt with through the more passive anti-trust laws, consumer protection laws, etc., but extreme cases may require federal intervention to some degree. Economic collapse also calls for government intervention to mitigate the effects. Preferably, this should be done through economic stimulus - heavy government spending on projects that represent solid investments and that will generate the highest velocity for the money injected into the economy (i.e. putting the money where it will flow through the most hands at the fastest rate, as $5 that is exchanged between 50 different people in 2 days is going to have a FAR greater impact on the economy than $500 that is transferred between three people over the course of four weeks, and ends up sitting in someone's bank account collecting interest for years). However, in extreme cases, direct government intervention may be called for (the banking crisis/collapse in 2008 being one example of a situation that calls for direct gov. intervention, and one potential solution, though not necessarily the best (which will also vary by situation)).
For the most part, though, sound, logical laws and regulations that are designed to restrict and regulate behavior that damages others and society, and provide support for community/social support programs from poverty and disaster relief to school and new-home-purchase assistance should be the general fare of government operations, with the ability to step in directly in extreme circumstances.
We each have fundamental rights, but we are also each interdependent upon each other, and if our goal is to make the world a better place for ourselves, our neighbors, and our children, or even just to maintain our society, then we have to be willing to make personal sacrifices to provide for the common good, and to provide for investments in society, the world, and our future. Well-reasoned laws and progressive taxation and support programs can distribute the burden of that investment to those who owe the most to society, and those who are best able to bear that burden.
RE: Nobody's claiming that the
I can agree with your statement here. However, the government already violates our rights & it’s time we all resist their efforts.
“Personally, I tend to be of the opinion that government should largely leave the general individual to his or her own devices, save where it impinges on the rights, health, safety, etc. of others. For the most part, following that with logical, well-reasoned regulations and restrictions to keep people from hurting, cheating, taking advantage of others, etc. will largely do for most every-day things.”
1. We make the world a better place through liberty & the free market not government demands.
2. The common good is best served through self-interest. If we all respect each others’ rights and can be civil with each other, we will all gain in the free exchange of ideas, goods & services.
3. “Progressive” taxation is REGRESSIVE European & oppressive ideology.
“We each have fundamental rights, but we are also each interdependent upon each other, and if our goal is to make the world a better place for ourselves, our neighbors, and our children, or even just to maintain our society, then we have to be willing to make personal sacrifices to provide for the common good, and to provide for investments in society, the world, and our future. Well-reasoned laws and progressive taxation and support programs can distribute the burden of that investment to those who owe the most to society, and those who are best able to bear that burden.”
Oh yes BTW we are not a nation or a democracy, that is fallacious. We are a Republic – A democratically elected representative union of INDEPENDANT states.
Additionally, “We the people” have the right, the authority & the duty to dismiss any law that we deem unjust, immoral & unconstitutional. Look up “Jury nullification”. This is not easy to do but legal.
The US Constitution protects the rights of the individual before the rights of the ”collective” thus protecting the ALL people equally.
1. Correction:
1. Correction: 'Progressively' graduated income taxes are hardly regressive - go back in time and you will find the top earners/wealth-holders being the lease-taxed (they were usually the ones collecting the taxes, in fact), while the heavy tax burden tended to be passed down to the unwashed masses, living in poverty. Progressively graduated income taxes redistribute the tax burden to the wealthy, who have the extra income to spare, making them better able to support the burden, and who also owe more to society than someone struggling barely above the poverty level, because the greater opportunities for wealth-generation that their position in society has given them, and that they would never have had without society.
2. How does being European make any difference on the significance of something? Where an idea comes from should not matter at all, only whether or not it works or provides accurate and testable predictions.
3. We live in a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC, and it is no more a straight Republic than it is a straight Democracy. We use democracy to elect our representatives, and to decide some issues, and the ultimate power of government is supposed to rest with us, not in our elected representatives.
4. The states are independent, but not independent nations. The U.S. has a peculiar, and highly successful mix of centralized/unified government and alliance of independent city-state/territories.
The independent alliance of city-states/territories that you describe was how we functioned under the Articles of Confederation, and the extreme independence granted under that document was part of why it failed.
Oh, I read it; I admit I was
Oh, I read it; I admit I was a bit rushed, but skimming over your post again, I'm not seeing anything different. Your post specifically states that the only solution to our problems is a solution that is 100% free market, and nothing else.
I'm sorry, but that's just flat-out wrong. Yes, the free market is a wonderful tool, a very powerful and effective system at distributing limited resources, especially when operating near the on-paper ideal.
However, it is not some mystical cure-all tonic. The problems we have come from a break-down in the regulatory systems that keep people from cheating and gaming the system. Part of this is a lifting and reduction of regulations, part of this is a reduction of taxes and tax incentives on the rich, and part of this is a phenomenon known as 'regulatory capture', in which the regulatory commissions fall under the sway of the very groups they are supposed to be regulating (and part of the reason for THAT is due to the regulatory agencies getting severe cuts under the previous administration, leaving them even more over-worked and under-staffed than they were before).
The solutions to those problems are not going to come straight from the Free Market.
The Free Market is a tool, a system of distributing resources, but it does not correct itself on its own. The notion that it does is a myth. Left on its own, unregulated, a Free Market system will quickly evolve into a feudalistic aristocracy, as people get rich, and then use that wealth to gain more wealth for themselves at little cost or effort to them, while producing little or nothing themselves (the 'rent seekers' Smith rails against). Before long, you have a very small clade of people who own or control almost all of the wealth and resources, while the vast majority of people are impoverished and indentured to them. Given more time, the system reverts back to straight feudalism.
The system of the free market itself is not inherently self-correcting, it does not balance or correct itself, let alone anything else, on its own. A Free Market requires an outside source, i.e. Government, to provide that stabilizing and corrective force. Regulations and restrictions are there to keep people from cheating and gaming the system, and to prevent people from abusing their wealth and power (at least, to reduce those to manageable levels; a complete elimination is not possible with any large-scale system).
This inherent lack of ability to self-correct and and self-stabilize also extends to crises and recovery. Left to its own devices, the free market does not have a built-in system to recover from a collapse or major crises. New developments or events of history can generate circumstances to stimulate a free market economy to recovery, but without a lucky windfall of events, a free market system lacks the ability to self-recover. The Free Market system itself does not contain any mechanism to create new stimulations for growth. When provided with those stimulations, it can be a powerful tool for growth, but the system itself does not generate them on its own.
Assuming that the collapse does not accelerate a reversion to feudalism, an unregulated free market will eventually recover, but it will involve a long period of recession or depression, with mass poverty, hunger, strife, etc. Without outside stimulation, a free market economy cannot easily pick itself back up from the rubble (at least, not if the super-wealthy still maintain their wealth, power and influence; if those are eliminated, a free market can recover faster, because with no heavy rent-seeker influence on the system, you revert to the more 'pure' form of the system, closer to the on-paper ideal, that you usually find right at the outset of a free market system, before large amounts of wealth can be amassed by a few). Even with the influence of rent-seekers eliminated, though, a free market is not going to rapidly recover on its own.
That is the second main role of government in the economy: Providing the balancing and stabilizing force that a free market inherently lacks, and serving as an outside source of stimulation to either prevent or mitigate the effects of a recession, or to promote recovery.
In times of plenty, government should be working hard to reduce spending, slim down its operations, and save, save, save (while taking care to still provide a stabilizing force for the economy, of course), so that it can dump massive spending and stimulus into the economy in the event of a recession or depression, to prevent job loss or create new jobs, and accelerate the lagging flow of money through the economy.
And going back to the Great Depression, there are multiple reasons why the recovery took so long, but one of the big ones was FDR's attempts to balance the budget. The New Deal involved a LOT of government spending, to the point of huge deficit spending, and by the late 30s, FDR was under a lot of pressure to balance the budget. He tried a couple times, making huge cuts in government spending and raising some taxes, and each time the slowly-recovering economy tanked, because it was still dependent on the massive government spending enacted under FDR.
So the solution to our economic problems is NOT something based exclusively in the free market. That will get us nowhere, at the very least will lead to a long, slow recovery, and could even make things worse.
What we need to solve our current economic crisis is 1. Government stabilization of the banking industry to prevent a collapse of the banking system (done, through the bank bail-outs, though it could have been targeted and implemented better, and other intervention options may have proved more effective), 2. Heavy government stimulus to save/create jobs and accelerate the lagging flow of money through the economy (done, with the president's stimulus package, though it was half as big as it should have been, and contained maybe four times as many tax cuts as it should have), and 3. Massive reform and revitalization of our economic regulatory system to increase/restore checks and balances against the power of the super-rich, against cheating and gaming of the system, ensuring fair practices, etc., so that the recovery can flow more smoothly without interruption by rent-seekers grabbing disproportionate amounts of the pie, and to prevent the mistakes that led to the collapse from happening again (currently underway, though facing heavy resistance from the big bank/big stock market/super-wealthy lobbies).
So, ultimately, we're more or less on the right track, though we're not necessarily picking the best path along that road that we could be.
RE: Magical Market
Answer the question, then we can have a discussion.
Well, this shouldn't be too hard.
You never actually asked a question. You made a statement that you would like certain information, but you never phrased the statement interrogatively.
Let's examine the statement though:
"What I would like to see from you in your remarks is the inclusion of the name of any country that has not become despotic when the government had control over its people."
Well, every government has control over its people. That control varies in degree from nation to nation, but there isn't a governed nation in existence where zero control is exerted. So, all one needs to do, really, is list any nation with any government of any kind that isn't despotic in nature.
I'm pretty sure I can go down the list of democratic republics that exist in the world, including the United States, all of which exhibit a measure of government control of people (even if it's just as simple as speed limits on the roads), and none of which are despotic. I think the point is made without having to make you a list of every democratic republic on Earth, though.
So now your query is satisfied, and Ilithi Dragon has thoroughly parsed through and addressed every point about why completely unregulated economies don't function (and haven't functioned throughout history), and why the level of taxation you propose is neither practical, nor moral.
As he correctly points out, the most successful point in our history, showing both the strongest economy and best financial standing for the most Americans, coincided with both heavy regulation and heavily progressive taxation.
RE: Well, this shouldn't be too hard.
I thought that only the “evil” right spoke in absolutes?!? Very curious that I never mentioned absolute anything & you are the 3rd person to say I have.
The fact that we had such a high tax rate & the US economy survived is a miracle. Taxes are a penalty on those that succeed. Additionally, it does slow down investment from those with money (the rich) who provides jobs for the rest of us. If they are not allowed to use their resources to create wealth for themselves & others then who does? The government is an all consuming organization that produces nothing except bills that they don’t read, understand and waste.
Our government does not have the constitutional authority to provide charity. If I am wrong please tell me where the constitution allows for it.
We by original intent were to be the sole example to the world of what a free society can be and should be. Over the last 100+ years that promise has been all but eliminated through taxation (theft of personal property), regulation (control of private property) and the usurpation of personal liberty, rights & responsibility.
I do not want to be like the Euro-states. They have been destroyed by one oppressor to be placed under the control of another. They can have their “Democracy” and will be destined to fail.
Thomas Jefferson – “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
"I never mentioned absolute anything"
Actually, you did speak on absolutes, but through implying it as far as economics rather than stating it directly.
You see, if you imply that any government which exerts any measure of control over its people leads to automatic totalitarianism, than even without discussing markets, you still imply that only a total lack of government regulation over the economy will effect a functional democratic nation, as economic control is control too.
Perhaps that's really neither here nor there though. The biggest problem I see in your argument, frankly, is that there isn't actually an argument. There's lots of thesis without a hint of supporting argument to back that thesis. That isn't to say that you're wrong, but if you're going to give a thesis, you have to back it up. You have to tell us WHY something is true. You have to tell us WHY economies cannot function in our present system, or why all European democracies are destined to fail, and you cannot simply back your hypotheses with more hypotheses either; you need material evidence. If you don't support yourself with evidence and logical argument, then you just end up with a bare assertion fallacy (X claims A is true; X claims X is correct/truthful; A is true), and of course, that doesn't work.
So let me help out there and test your hypotheses by seeing if what they would predict as true has actually come to pass. Well, if it's "a miracle" that "we had such a high tax rate & the US economy survived", then that means that there should be few to no economies in the world which have survived our level of taxation (or anything greater). So let's look at Japan, Australia, and western Europe. Have a great majority of them had a total, *economy-ceasing* crash in, say, the last few decades? If not, then your statement does not match the facts. I should note that the greatest economic crash in recent history came, not from a European nation with high amounts of regulation and taxation, but from the US. Why did the biggest crash come from the nation which operates most closely to your model? If your model is to survive, you have to explain this, and you still have to come up with some evidence besides.
Again, this isn't to say that you're wrong, but it is to say that this is just how theory works. You don't get to have a working theory until you've created a hypothesis or a model and then you've *proven* it correct with evidence, and successful tests with predictions. That's why SSE isn't a theory. It's a hypothesis on how economics can work, but it's not one that has passed the tests to the become a theory.
Now let's look at your second big statement, that "They [Europe] have been destroyed by one oppressor to be placed under the control of another. They can have their 'Democracy' and will be destined to fail".
Again, this is a thesis made without providing a single supporting argument or fact. So, does the thesis hold up? Well, one can argue about the level of civil liberties or economic freedom the people of a given European nation have elected to enact through the laws of their nations, but so long as they are under the jurisdiction of democratic governments, the people of these nations are still making these decisions ultimately, and therefore are not, by any definition I am aware of, politically oppressed.
In fact, many forms of civic participation, voter education, and voter turnout are much higher in European nations than in our own, and special interests do not hold the sway in those nations that they do in the US due to strict campaign financing laws. For instance, in Britain, political TV ads are illegal; it's viewed as 'buying democracy' because of the money required to run them, and the disparity that creates between candidates of different financial situations. Actually looking at the *facts*, one could actually easily conclude that these nations are LESS oppressed than the US, due to the lack of governing influence from non-citizen entities that the US suffers from. In the US, Exxon-Mobile gets to hold powerful sway over an awful lot of policy, and we don't even get to vote them out thanks to Citizens United v Federal Election Commission. I call a non-citizen entity deciding government policy through powerful lobbies without accountability to The People oppression, and a form of a oppression Europe doesn't have.
"Our government does not have the constitutional authority to provide charity. If I am wrong please tell me where the constitution allows for it."
Article 1, Section 8, The General Welfare Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause.
Ilithi Dragon begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting was correct to point out the General Welfare Clause. That said, I think a brief talk about the Necessary and Proper Clause (also called the "elastic clause") is in order.
First, we need to understand the history of its origin. After our breaking away from Britain, the United States was under a form of government established by the Articles of Confederation. I won't go into great detail, but essentially, the greatest weakness of the government was a strict limitation to explicitly defined powers. The lack of an ability to levy taxes to raise an army to do things like stop Shay's rebellion were bad, but what was worse was that the government couldn't even pass new laws to give them more power even though it was clearly required! For this reason, when the Federalists were pushing for the US Constitution, they sought to include implied powers in addition to the enumerated powers. This is where the Necessary and Proper Clause comes in, in addition to some vaguely defined enumerated powers.
So where does it say Congress can provide charity? Well, Article 1, Section 8 says that Congress has the power to “provide for the common defense and general welfare” and “make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof”. In essence, Congress has very broad powers to enact whatever laws it feels it needs to benefit the nation, so long as said law is not *explicitly* in violation of a provision of the Constitution. Congress may get voted out for passing a law no one likes, and the next Congress may override it, but Constitutionally, Congress can still do a great many things so long as the political will to do them exists.
This was not only the intention of the framers of the Constitution, but quickly became legal precedent in McCulloch v. Maryland, which allowed Congress to establish a national bank, a big step forward in the broadly defined powers they would come to have as time went on and cases were taken.
“Thomas Jefferson – 'A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.' “
Do you even know what the context of this quote is? Jefferson (along with the other founding fathers) didn't believe in democracy as an effective form of government. In fact, they specifically designed the Constitution to NOT give a democracy (a republic, but not a democracy). The word democracy itself comes from Aristotle, and refers to rule by the “demos”, or, roughly translated, rule by the uneducated mob. It was viewed as a very negative thing, so, of course, rather than simply pushing for trying to have an educated populace, the idea was to establish aristocracy to rule over the 'lesser people'. This is also what the founding fathers believed. They viewed the idea of democracy in a very negative light, and also wanted an aristocratic rule. You're free to agree with Jefferson on that point, but don't expect too much agreement when advocating rule by an aristocracy like the Founding Fathers originally did.
RE: "I never mentioned absolute anything"
I will give you some absolutes!
Lack of any government is anarchy. I do not support anarchy. I would prefer a government that would remember its duly appointed place – limited to its enumerated powers as listed in the US Constitution.
Oh & BTW we are NOT a democracy we are a REPUBLIC of independent states.
Taxation & regulation will not stop the economy from growing but it does slow it down. Taxation does negatively affect it. An example would be the number of folks that stop smoking because they cannot afford to purchase cigarettes any longer. This product will eventually no longer be a viable product and the taxation of this product plays an important role in its destruction.
Most of Europe may not be currently under the boot of despotic rule but you must admit that every European country has had more than its fair share of despots, one after the other. With the pattern they have set, it is only a matter of time before they do it again.
Countries like Russia have political prisoners still. Countries that have modeled themselves after the European dictators of years past like Venezuela & Cuba have political prisoners. Also in the Muslim world, countries that have boarders & governments formed by Europeans have political & religious prisoners.
Article I Section 8 does not include “Charity”.
“The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” James Madison, speech in the House of Representatives, January 10, 1794
We do not need to be a country that will follow the European model. We have our own, a better pattern if we are bold enough to stick to it. For the last 100 years we have strayed from the original intent of our founding documents.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." - Thomas Jefferson 3rd President, Jan 20, 1777 to Jan 20, 1781
I will give you some
I will give you some absolutes!
Lack of any government is anarchy. I do not support anarchy. I would prefer a government that would remember its duly appointed place – limited to its enumerated powers as listed in the US Constitution.
I think we all agree that anarchy is bad, and that totalitarian/authoritarian rule is bad. The conflict we have is of how MUCH government is good, what role government should serve, and at what point it becomes totalitarianism.
Re enumerated powers, etc.:
As I have mentioned in other posts, a government that has strict enumerated powers, no implied powers, and can only do specifically what is outlined in its defining document will default into a fail state, as history has shown us with the Articles of Confederation. It just doesn't work, because no document can anticipate all the problems a government will face, let alone the correct solutions to those problems, never mind the fact that being utterly beholden to the State Governments as you seem to desire and as the Articles of Confederation mandated leaves the central government utterly beholden to a collection of state governments which are just as, if not more self-serving than the Federal government, who will (as history has shown us) tend to put the interests of their own state above the common interests of all states (just as local and county governments will do within the state governments). A strong, central government with the power to mandate to the states action that will provide for and increase the common defense of all states (or more specifically, their people), and the general welfare of all people is not inherently bad or evil or wrong, and is in fact critically necessary to a functioning society, as well as a moral and ethical obligation.
This is also something of a moot point, though, because the U.S. Constitution DOES specifically enumerate to Congress the power to provide for "the general welfare." Article 1, Section 8 specifically states "debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States." This can take many different forms, from the creation and funding of national parks and forests, to the funding of the construction and maintenance of a national interstate super-highway system, to the creation of the US Air Force (which Congress would not have the power to create and fund without this clause of Article I, Section 8, because the framers of the constitution did not see fit to specifically enumerate to Congress the right to raise and fund an Air Force), to providing medicare and social security and other assistance for our elderly and impaired, and a thousand other programs that we, and our society as a whole, benefits from every day.
So, per its Constitutionally-enumerated powers, Congress DOES have the authority to raise taxes, etc. to fund projects it deems necessary or appropriate to provide for the common defense and general welfare. Furthermore, while non-profit charity organizations certainly have their place and fill a vital role in society, there are many things that they can't do, or aren't well-equipped to do, ESPECIALLY on the macro scale. These are things which the federal and state governments are well-equipped to do.
Additionally, most charities receive government funding of some sort or another, and many people deduct their charitable contributions from their income tax, meaning that, ultimately, a huge percentage of the operations of non-profit charity organizations is already funded by the government, directly or in-directly. Government assistance programs simply shorten the path even further, so that government funding is going directly into the programs, instead of through charity organizations, tax deductions, etc. Government is also very efficient at this, with only a small percentage going to overhead costs (Medicare, for example, only has an operating cost overhead of about 4%), with effectively nil fundraising costs since funds for social assistance and charity programs are generated through the existing tax system, which we would have regardless of whether government provided funding for various social programs, charities, etc.
Furthermore, 100% dependence on charitable giving instead of a mix of charity and fed/state taxes for social assistance programs means that you are 100% dependent on the majority of people, and especially the majority of people with a lot of extra money to give, having very high levels of altruism. As much as I champion the human race and the good that the species can accomplish, expecting 300 million people to all increase their charitable giving by a percentage that equals the percentage of their tax dollars that goes to charity and social assistance programs, instead of spending it on past-due bills, or a new computer game, or new glasses for their kids, or to help pay for a house of their own, is painfully naive.
Re Europe, dictators, etc.:
Europe has been around a lot longer than the U.S., with the vast, vast, vast majority of their governments existing in the period of history that constitutes the 99% of human existence before the concepts of freedom, self-government, equality, and the rejection of such notions as Divine Right, etc. really took hold, and before the industrial revolution really gave the common people the ability to TAKE control and power away from oppressive rulers. The entire history of what now constitutes the U.S. took place almost exclusively within that 1% of history in which the common people were able to stand up and take the reigns of a government and society away from the small clade of super-rich aristocratic nobles who have ruled humanity for most of its existence.
During our revolution, when we were throwing off the yoke of that aristocratic oppression, Europe was going through a similar period of revolution, a period that had been on-going for decades before our Revolutionary War (and which contributed to many of the ideas, principles and ideals upon which our Revolution and our Nation were founded). It was flavored with European history and politics, but it was still ultimately just a different branch of the same revolution in humanity (the over-throw of the rule of nobles in a feudalist government ordained by divinity or just straight force of arms in favor of the rule of law in a democratic republic governed by the people, for the people, and of the people). Sure, Europe and Russia, and Asia have all had their share of dictators and oppressors the last couple centuries, but the setting for their revolution from aristocratic feudalism to representative democracy was different than ours, with different players, different starting conditions, etc. Europe saw a lot of competition between nations, and the revolutions in European nations did not all occur at once - they occurred at different times, in different ways, and were affected by the interactions of their immediate neighbors in Europe. In the U.S., our revolution was remarkably uniform by comparison. We also had a particularly outstanding group of people leading our revolution. If the Russian revolution that overthrew the Czars was lead by someone like Washington (who reportedly refused an offer to overthrow congress and assume military control as King not once but three times), instead of Lenin, the USSR may well have been a very different entity (the Soviet Union, a constitutional democratic republic not all that different from our own on paper, suffered from a lack of strong checks and balances on power, high levels of corruption from the start, and a case of 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' - Lenin was a great 'hero of the revolution' but he was NOT cut from the same moral fabric as Washington, et al). There is also the fact that violent revolutions tend to depose the dictator only for the revolutionaries to just make themselves his replacement, instead of truly reforming the system and creating a new government as ours did.
So in the confused and chaotic mess that was Europe the last 200+ years, some nasty people came to power (Hitler, Massolini, Lenin, Stalin), sometimes overthrowing other nasty people (Russian Czars), other times overthrowing a weakened republic (Germany), and various other means. But after WWII and the defeat of the Axis Powers, coupled with the Marshal Plan, Europe and Russia have been slowly, sometimes haltingly, but still steadily towards greater freedom and away from tyranny and oppression. Europe is freerer now than it has ever been in its entire history, and there is no indication that it will be reverting any time soon. Russia still has many issues, yes, but they are far, far, far better than they were, and they're slowly getting better.
There is absolutely nothing inherently European about dictatorship, oppression, political prisoners, etc. Those are childhood diseases and ailments that humanity is slowly growing out of. We ourselves are just as guilty of holding political prisoners, forced relocations, death marches and even genocide as many European nations, from the Japanese internment camps in WWII, to slavery and racist lynch mobs, to the Trail of Tears. Our record is not much better than anyone else's, and is considerably worse in some cases. And don't forget, the U.S. itself is inherently European in its roots.
Ideally, government shouldn't be giving handouts to everyone, or steamrolling outcomes so that we are all equal in everything we have. What it SHOULD do is provide assistance to those who need it, and aggressively equalize opportunity, so that we all have the equal opportunity to make of our lives what we will, regardless of who we are or where we come from (part of the true American Dream).
Yes, this means helping the poor, the destitute, the impoverished; people who, without government aid and assistance, would have little or no real opportunity to improve their station and to make their lives, or the lives of their children, better. People who just have the dirty, rotten luck to have drawn the short straw almost every time. It also means requiring those who got excessively lucky, by birth or in opportunity, to repay that luck by shouldering a greater share of the burden of maintaining society and increasing the equality of opportunity, in proportion to their ability to shoulder it relative to the rest of society.
This is what we are required to do, and what our government is required to do, both by mandate of the Constitution, by pragmatic requirement (it best serves the most people), and by moral and ethical obligations (if we have plenty, but refuse to share what we can with those who have need, especially through no fault of their own, what kind of people are we?).
RE: I will give you some
I’m glad we can agree on some thing, too little government is as bad as too much government. Unfortunately history has shown us that too much is the way we have behaved over & over & over again.
You might want to read this majority opinion by SCOTUS. The short version is the feds have NO authority over the state & local governments. In point of fact they provide another layer of checks & balances to our form of government.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1478.ZO.html
It also proves that the state &/or local officials have the authority to forcibly remove or even arrest federal agents in their district when they believe that the feds are not complying with the Constitution and its LIMITED duties.
Everything a body needs to have the mandated purchase of health care tossed out & possibly the whole bloody thing as unconstitutional.
European governments are parliamentarian, IMO are democratically elected short lived despotic rule. No need for a constitution (England) no need for checks and balances, it amounts to a one party rule that has the potential to dictate unjust law without having to worry about the consequences. Thank fully that does not happen as often as it could.
The power is in the hands of the people not folks at the top.
Personal question, refuse to answer if you choose, I’m just curious.
Are you a boy or a girl? I have been assuming (cuss word, ass-u-me) you’re a girl.